Thursday, October 10, 2013

Mopre Notes on Ishamel and Muhammad's connection

From Assyrian records dated between the 9th and 7th century B.C., we know that Ishmaelite tribes lived as nomads in Sinai and the Fertile Crescent. But none of these records include the name Ishmael. No inscription shows that they called any person by that name. This demonstrates to us that they didn’t know their lineage from Ishmael. Otherwise, they would certainly have been proud to be his descendants, and they would have recorded Ishmael in each subsequent generation, just as the Israelites recorded Isaac as part of their Israelite religious heritage in every ancient book they wrote.


 Because Ishmael received no spiritual call from God, his only historical descendants were the twelve tribes which descended from his sons. In consequent generations, even his sons' descendents forgot about him, including his name, even though the time between Ishmael and these tribes was  only about 1,200 years (between the 7th and 9th century B.C.). 

HOWEVER KEDAR WAS IN ARABIA The Qedarites (also Kedarites/CedarenesCedar/Kedar/Qedar, and Kingdom of Qedar) were a largely nomadic, ancient Arab and Semitic tribal confederation. Described as "the most organized of the Northern Arabian tribes", at the peak of its power in the 6th century BC it controlled a large region between the Mesopotamia and Hejaz.[1][2][3][4]

The Qedarites were an "Arab tribal confederation," or "alliance of nomadic Arab tribes."[3][4] According to Philip J. King, theologian and historian, they lived in the northwest Arabian desert and were "an influential force from the 8th to 4th centuries BC."[3] Geoffrey Bromiley, historical theologist and translator, transcribes their name as Kedar and states they lived in an area southeast of Damascus and east of the Transjordan.[5]
8th century BC Assyrian inscriptions place the Qedarites as living in the area to the east of the western border of Babylon.[2] Moving further east into areas of the Transjordan and southern Syria in the 7th century BC, by the 5th century BC they had spread into the Sinai and as far as the Nile Delta.[2][12] Qedarite domination of northwest Arabia involved alliances between the kings of Qedar and the kings of Dedan (Al-`Ula).[13] Historian Israel Eph'al writes that the "breadth of Qedarite distribution suggests a federation of tribes with various sub-divisions."[2]

The Qedarites are among a number of North Arabian tribes whose interactions with Arameaen tribes beginning in the 8th century BC resulted in cultural exchanges between these two largeSemitic groups.[31] Early Arab tribal groups like the Qedarites spoke early Arab dialects, but as the Arabic alphabet had not yet been developed, they used the Aramaic alphabet to write.[31][32]"The tongue of Kedar" is used in rabbinical sources as a name for the Arabic language.[33]

Pliny the Elder (23–79 AD), who refers to the Cedrei and Cedareni ("Cedarenes") in the context of other Arabian tribes, placing their domain to the south of the Conchlei and adjacent to that of theNabataei, is thought to be referring to the Qedar.[10][20] Jerome (c. 357–420 AD), also writing in Latin, transcribes Qedar as Cedar, and refers to it as a region.[21] In one entry, he describes it as, "a region of the Saracens, who are called Ishmaelites in scripture"; in another, he writes it that is was a "once uninhabitable region across Saracen Arabia"; and in a third, he writes that it is a "deserted region of the Ishmaelites, whom they now call Saracens."[21] According to the Catholic EncyclopediaTheodoret (c. 393 – c. 457) mentions that in his time, the Qedar lived near Babylon.[22]

Assyrian inscriptions[edit]
The first documented mention of Qedar is from a stele (c. 737 BC) of Tiglath-Pileser III, a king of the Neo-Assyrian Empire, that lists tribes from the southern parts of Mesopotamia that pay him tribute.[2][18] To the Assyrians, the Qedarites were known as Qidri or qi-id-ri with other cuneiform inscriptions also using Qadri, Qidarri, Qidari and Qudari (Neo Babylonian).

Statements about the Qedarites in the annals of the Assyrian kings of Ashurbanipal and his son Esarhaddon indicate that the term Kedar was almost synonymous with Arabia.[5] Dumah is referred to as Adummatu by the Assyrians, and the city is described by them as the seat of the Qedar confederation and the base of their cult.[19]

Pliny the Elder (23–79 AD), who refers to the Cedrei and Cedareni ("Cedarenes") in the context of other Arabian tribes, placing their domain to the south of the Conchlei and adjacent to that of the Nabataei, is thought to be referring to the Qedar.[10][20] Jerome (c. 357–420 AD), also writing in Latin, transcribes Qedar as Cedar, and refers to it as a region.[21] In one entry, he describes it as, "a region of the Saracens, who are called Ishmaelites in scripture"; in another, he writes it that is was a "once uninhabitable region across Saracen Arabia"; and in a third, he writes that it is a "deserted region of the Ishmaelites, whom they now call Saracens."[21] According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Theodoret (c. 393 – c. 457) mentions that in his time, the Qedar lived near Babylon.[22]

19th century[edit]

There are brief references to the Qedar in the writings of Western travellers to the Levant in the 19th century. Drawing on biblical motfis, comparisons are made between the Bedouins and the Qedar. For example, Albert Augustus Isaacs describes the imposing spectacle of a Bedouin encampment on a plain upon which, "the black tents of Kedar were spread far and wide."[23] An earlier account by Charles Boileau Elliot describes the Arabs as falling into two main groups, Fellahs and Bedouins, and identifies the latter with Ishmael and the Qedar as follows:

[...] the Bedouins still retain the wandering habits of their father Ishmael; their 'hand is against every man, and every man's hand is against' them; the wild desert is their home; the ground their pallet and their canopy the sky; or, if luxurious their choicest place of sojourn is a little tent 'black as the tents of Kedar' their progenitor [...][24]

he Ishmaelites themselves were not aware of their ancestry from Ishmael, who would have told the 21st ancestor of Mohammed that he was descended from Ishmael. There’s no written document before Mohammed that make such a claim.


  1.  tying Adnan to Abraham.  Notice they have only a few names (9 while some say only 6) in a list that should span over a thousand years!
  2. “Ibn Humayd … ‘Adnan as some genealogists assert, was the son of Udad b. Muqawwam b. Nahur b. Tayrah b. Ya’rub b. Yashjub b. Nabit b. Ismail (Ishmael) b. Ibrahim (Abraham, while others say: ‘Adnan b. Udad b. Aytahab b. Ayyub b. Qaydhar b. Ismail (Ishmael) b. Ibrahim (Abraham) Qusayy b. Kilab traces his descent back to Qaydhar in his poetry. Yet other genealogists say …” (History of Tabari, vol. 6, p. 38)

    Islam’s own sources claim that Ishmael’s descendants were scattered and not only in Arabia ., Prophet Muhammad always knew he was a North Arab.... A Person from Mudar, There is a link between Mudar /Adnan and Ishmael, as Qusayy bin Kilab traces his descent back to Kedar in his poerty, see above.

    Ishamel was an ARABIZED Immigrant/ Arabs and Arabic already existed BEFORE him. He was the ancestor of the Northern Arabs. THERE ARE PLENETLY OF PRE ISLAMIC MENTIONS OF ISHMAEL IN PRE ISLAMIC POETRY AND HADITH.  Also see Ibn Ishaq pages 45-46 for more Pre Islamic mentions of him.

    Someone perhaps realized that these numbers were unreasonable and made the following claim (without a chain of transmitters tying this to Muhammad, nor a source for this information)

    “A certain genealogist told me that he had found that some Arab scholars had memorized forty ancestors of Ma’add as far as Ismail (Ishmael) in Arabic, quoting Arabic verses as evidence for this, and that he had collated the names they gave with what the People of the Book say and had found that the number agreed but that the actual names differed.  He dictated these names to me and I wrote them down.  They are as follows; …” (History of Tabari, vol. 6, p. 40)

    1. Ibn Ishaq talks of the descendants of Ishmael dwelling with those of Jurhum in Arabia
    2. “when Ishmael the son of Abraham died, his son Nabit was in charge of the temple as long as God willed, then it was in charge of Mudad* b. Amr al-Jurhumi.  The sons of Ishmael and the sons of Nabit were with their grandfather Mudad b. ‘Amr and their maternal uncles of Jurhum – Jurhum and Qatura who were cousins being at that time the people of Mecca.  They had come forth from Yaman and travelled together and Mudad was over Jurhum and Samayda’, one of their men, over Qatura’. When they left the Yaman, they refused to go unless they had a king to order their affairs.  When they came to Mecca they saw a town blessed with water and trees and, delighted with it, they settled there.  Mudad b. ‘Amr with the men of Jurhum settled in the upper part of Mecca in Qu’ayqui’an and went no farther.  Samayda’ with Qatura’ settled in the lower part of Mecca in Ajyad, and went no farther.  Mudad used to take a tithe from those who entered Mecca from above, while Samayda’ did the same from those who entered from below.  Each kept to his own people, neither entering the others territory.”  (Guillaume’s “The life of Muhammad”, pp. 45-46)

    3. Ibn Ishaq talks of the descendants of Ishmael being a minority spread out among the Arabs
    4. “Then God multiplied the offspring of Ishmael in Mecca and their uncles from Jurhum were rulers of the temple and judges in Mecca.  The sons of Ishmael did not dispute their authority because of their ties of kindred and their respect for the sanctuary lest there should be quarrelling or fighting therein.  When Mecca became too confined for the sons of Ishmael they spread abroad in the land, and whenever they had to fight a people, God gave them the victory through their religion and they subdued them.”  (Guillaume’s “The life of Muhammad”, p. 46)
  1. “The genealogists do not differ concerning the descent of our Prophet Muhammad as far as Ma’add b. ‘Adnan.” (Hist. of Tabari, Vol. 6, p. 37)
  2. Examples of conflicting traditions past Ma’add b. Adnan
  3. Al-Zubayr b. Bakkar – Yahya b. al-Miqdad al-Zam’i – his paternal uncle Musa b. Ya’qub b. ‘Abdullah b. Wahb b. Zam’ah – his maternal aunt Umm Salamah, the wife of the Prophet: “I heard the messenger of God say, “Ma’add b. ‘Adnan b. Udad b. Zand b. Yara b. A’raq al-Thara.” (History of Tabari, vol. 6, p. 38)
    Al-Harith-Muhammad b. Sa’d – Hisham b. Muhammad – Muhammad b. ‘Abd al-Rahman al- ‘Ajlani – Musa b. Ya’qub al-Zami – his paternal aunt – her grandmother Bint al-Miqdad b. al-Aswad al-Bahrani: The Messenger of God said, “Ma’add b. ‘Adnan b. Udad b. Yara b. A’raq al-Thara” (History of Tabari, vol. 6, p. 38)

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