Sunday, November 24, 2013

Ishamel in Pre Islamic Times, Revisited

We read in the 83rd chapter of the Psalms that the Ishmaelites did not worship Yahweh God:
"O God, do not keep silence; do not hold your peace or be still, O God! For behold, your enemies make an uproar; those WHO HATE YOU have raised their heads. They lay crafty plans against your people; they consult together against your treasured ones. They say, ‘Come, let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more!’ For they conspire with one accord;AGAINST YOU they make a covenant - the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites, Gebal and Ammon and Amalek, Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; Asshur also has joined them; they are the strong arm of the children of Lot. Selah Do to them as you did to Midian, as to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon, who were destroyed at En-dor, who became dung for the ground. Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna, who said, ‘Let us take possession for ourselves of the pastures of God.’ O my God, make them like whirling dust, like chaff before the wind. As fire consumes the forest, as the flame sets the mountains ablaze, so may you pursue them with your tempest and terrify them with your hurricane! Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek your name, O LORD. Let them be put to shame and dismayed forever; let them perish in disgrace, that they may know that you alone, whose name is the LORD, are the Most High over all the earth. Psalm 83:1-18

Deuterocanonical references[edit]

The book of Jubilees Chapter 20:12-13 places the location and identity of the Ishmaelites as the Arab peoples residing in Arab territories. This is the current view for the majority of the Christian, Islamic and Jewish faiths. According to Biblical accounts the Arab people traditionally have had long-standing alliances with the descendants of the Assyrians and the Medes.[citation needed] SO THIS REFUTES THE ARE ARABS SEMITIES VIDEO. ACCORDING TO JEWISH ACCOUNTS THE ARABS ARE 

World views[edit]

Historians and academics in the fields of linguistics and source criticism believe that the stories of Ishmael belong to the three strata of J, or Yahwist source, the P, or Priestly source, and the E, or Elohist source (See Documentary hypothesis).[1] For example, The narration in Genesis 16 is of J type and the narration in Genesis 21:8-21 is of E type.[14]
Islamic traditions consider Ishmael to be the ancestor of Arab people,[2] excluding Arabs who are descendants of Ya'rub. Arabs who are from Ishmael-descendant tribes are occasionally referred to as "Arabized-Arabs" to highlight their ancestry.
Jewish traditions are split between those, like Josephus, who consider Ishmael the ancestor of the Arabs,[15] and those, like Maimonides, who believe that the northern Arabs are descended from the sons of Keturah, whom Abraham married after Sarah's death.[16]

Pre-Islamic Arabia[edit]

Some Pre-Islamic poetry mentions Ishmael, his father Abraham, and the sacrifice story, such as the Pre-Islamic poet "Umayyah Ibn Abi As-Salt", who said in one of his poems: بكره لم يكن ليصبر عنه أو يراه في معشر أقتال ([The sacrifice] of his first-born of whose separation he [Abraham] could not bear neither could he see him surrounded in foes).[17][18][19]

 From Assyrian records dated between the 9th and 7th century B.C., we know that Ishmaelite tribes lived as nomads in Sinai and the Fertile Crescent. But none of these records include the name Ishmael. No inscription shows that they called any person by that name. This demonstrates to us that they didn’t know their lineage from Ishmael. Otherwise, they would certainly have been proud to be his descendants, and they would have recorded Ishmael in each subsequent generation, just as the Israelites recorded Isaac as part of their Israelite religious heritage in every ancient book they wrote.
 Because Ishmael received no spiritual call from God, his only historical descendants were the twelve tribes which descended from his sons. In consequent generations, even his sons' descendents forgot about him, including his name, even though the time between Ishmael and these tribes was  only about 1,200 years (between the 7th and 9th century B.C.). 

If the Ishmaelites themselves were not aware of their ancestry from Ishmael, who would have told the 21st ancestor of Mohammed that he was descended from Ishmael?

It's Possible that the Prophet Muhammad had gotten divine revelation linking him to Mudar and thus to Ishamel (See Ibn Sad, Volume 1, Page 4). Or possibly by Oral Reports of the Arabs or by Pre-Islamic Poetry mentioning Ishmael. 

Yet, there were those people in Arabia, specifically at the time of Mohammed, who knowingly held to the claim that they were descendents of Biblical figures. Men who claimed to be prophets often claimed to descend from known figures in history, or from people mentioned in the Bible. Umayya bin abi al-Salt, a maternal cousin of Mohammed, claimed to be a prophet. He said the Queen of Sheba, who visited Solomon, was his aunt.[13][xiii]  He said this to establish that he was from the line of her brother. Also Tubb'a (the Yemeni leader who ruled between A.D. 410 and 435 and occupied Mecca) claimed to be a prophet and claimed that the Queen of Sheba was his aunt.[14][xiv]  Throughout history we have had people like Umayya bin Abi al-Salt also mentions Ishmael in his poetry. 

[13][xiii] Diwan Ummiah, page 26
[14][xiv] Tarikh al-Tabari, I, page 429

Considering the shortness of the Arabian generation, let’s suppose that each generation in Mohammed’s genealogy is 20 years. Since Mohammed is separated from Abraham and Ishmael by 2,670 years, there must have been a little over 133 generations between them.  Of course not all the Arabs are going to know about who these people in between are. The Point is the Northern Arabs trace back to Adnan, from Adnan, the Pre Islamic poetry traces back to Kedar who was in Arabia, and Kedar was a son of Ishmael. They knew this by oral reports and poetry, etc.  Also see 


In the first place, Mohammed himself confessed that he didn’t know of any ancestor before his 17th ancestor. However this saying or hadith is inauthentic because according to  Wathila b. al-Asqa' reported: I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Verily Allah granted eminence to Kinana from amongst the descendants of Isma'il and he granted eminence to the Quraish amongst Kinana and he granted eminence to the Quraish amongst Banu Hashim and he granted me eminencece from the tribe of Banu Hashim.  (Muslim Book #030, Hadith #5653)-- Prophet Muhammad went beyond his 17th ancestor and said that from Kinana goes back to Ishamel. So this refutes the claim that the Prophet was from Yemen and didn't know all ancestory back to Ishmael. 

 Secondly, after the 17th generation, we begin to notice the differences in these genealogies.  After Maad bin Adnan, number 21, The Arabs did not doubt Adnan's descent from Isma'il so they considered it sufficient to enumerate the names only up to Adnan and neglected his predessors excepting a few worthy of note. Still there were many experts who knew these gaps. ( See Al-Tabari, Volume 3, Page 1119 (European Edition). 

There are 2,670 years between Ishmael and Mohammed; so of course not all the Arab Genelogists would keep records of people between Adnan and Ishamel. we can’t allow 41 years for each generation. Scholars consider an Arabian generation to have been about 20 years,  because Arabians married when they were about 17-20 years old, due to weather and their cultural environment.

Jewish traditions are split between those, like Josephus, who consider Ishmael the ancestor of the Arabs,[15]Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Ch. 12; 2, 4
 of the descent from Ishmael was prevalent among some Arabs in pre-Islamic times:

SEE THE BOOK Byzantium and the Arabs in the Fifth Century

 By Irfan Shahîd, PAGE 383. 

"Zayd Ibn Amr" was another Pre-Islamic figure who refused idolatry and preached monotheism, claiming it was the original belief of their [Arabs] father Ishmael.[20][21]
Also, some of the tribes of Central West Arabia called themselves the "people of Abraham and the offspring of Ishmael", as evidenced by a common opening of speeches and harangues of reconciliation between rival tribes in that area.[22][23]

  1. ^ Al-Kashf Wa Al-Bayan, Volume 11, Page 324
  2. Jump up^ The Beginning and the End by Ibn Kathir - Volume 3, Page 323
  3. Jump up^ The History by Ibn Khaldun, Volume 2, Page 4
  4. Jump up^ The Signs of Prophethood, Section 18, page 215
  5. Jump up^ The Collection of the Speeches of Arabs, volume 1, section 75

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